Question for Instructors?

Hey ive been thinking about the age requirements to become a black belt and in how long it takes to reach that grade. I'm referring specifically to Karate but info on any style is appreciated. I was reading an article in a MA mag earlier about a kid who achieved a black belt at the age of 5, i am certain that someone that age doesn't have the maturity or skills to be awarded with a black belt rank. I'm not certain on the rules of my Dojo but there is nobody below the age of 16 with a black belt, however in a competition i entered there were kids that looked no more than 10/11 wearing one, i was later disappointed to not see them producing the skills you would expect from someone that grade. However someone affiliated to my association who is the first junior(under 18) in the UK to receive a 3rd Dan, as far as im aware it is legit, heres a link, what are your opinions?





http://www.pressdispensary.co.uk/feed/99鈥?/a>





I have heard of a lot of different opinions on age and time needed to achieve certain grades so id like some opinions on it.





So the questions are:


1) How long does your 'average' student take to reach 1st Dan (or similar depending on your style)?





2) What are the age/other requirements a student must meet before they can be awarded a 1st Dan?





3) If someone meets the criteria and syllabus to be promoted to 1st Dan but are below the age requirements do you





a. make an exception and promote them


b. offer a 'junior black belt' or something similar, and make them retest when they are older to be awarded a 'senior black belt'


c. make them wait until they are of age before the can be graded


d. something else...explain?





4) Do you change the grading syllabus at all between juniors and seniors, if so in what way?





i know there's a lot there but any help would be appreciated, thanksQuestion for Instructors?
1. 5 to 7 years


2. Full dan rank of shodan is 18 years...we have junior rank which is 1st kyu for their shodan


3. Make them wait if they don't like it they can quit because rank is not the focus at our dojo


4. We do teach children more technically than adults. Adult classes are more about application.


5. All a shodan means is that the student is technically efficient to wear the black belt...nothing more. To many people equate all this crap about being mature, grown up, responsible and whatever else they can dream up. Sure a student must be responsible and have a certain amount of self discipline to be a shodan but in reality that is the first true rank in one's study of the art....no the entire focus of it.





Just so you know there are plenty of ';kids'; who are black belts in Karate in Okinawa and many under famous masters such as Nagimine Sensei and others. Over there the black belt just means they have the technical abilities needed to begin application study. They could care less about the other stuff until the student is mature enough to grow into it.Question for Instructors?
Firslty i am not an instructor but can give general advice of how it operates in my organisation





1) the average ''black-belt'' takes at minimum 5 years even at that it seems to be quite common to fail or take longer as students want to be fully prepared





2) We don't have age requirements simply because the general youngest age that somebody starts Silat seems to be roughly 14-16 in which case if they stick to black-belt they are pretty much considered adult by the state (or very close to it)





3) Our grading system has an ''understudy black-belt'' which is basically where you have to train to be qualified to teach %26amp; know history of the art, principals, theory %26amp; be able to perform for your grading (that is what i know of %26amp; i'm nowhere near it, there is probably even more that i have yet to find out)





4) as i said the general age is 14-16 at the youngest starting so we don't have a junior class everybody trains with everyone of all ages %26amp; skills.
1) The kids take about 10 years. Adults can sometimes do it in five.





2) There are no age requirements. We have some guidelines regarding knowledge and skill that vary by age. The biggest difference is some hard-core self defense that we do not teach anyone under 16. The final piece is a good attidude, that trips up most of them.





3) We don't have an age requirement. However, juniors (16 and younger) do not get the title ';Sensei.'; They do not have to re-test to be considered a ';senior'; but they typically have to qualify for promotion and do more teaching to be given their sensei title.
in my opinion there should be no black belts under 18.some styles allow BBs and dan ranks as well as titles(which is absolutely ridicilous) but when they turn 18 they are reqired to do all there gradings above BB again.
A 3rd dan who is not in their twenties? Absolutely Ridiculous!!! You need to question your school, it's requirements and all it's affiliations. If you get answers you like then your requirements are already made up for you. If not, go elsewhere. No matter what requirements I list here not everyone will like it or think it is legitimate. More importantly, you need to decide if your current school is no longer for you. I think this is the real question.
1. There is no average /per say in my style. But no one has done it in less than 4-5 years.





2. The minimum age is 16. However, I make the decision as to who is ready to be awarded the Shodan. Therefore I have had only one student below the age of 20 ever be awarded a Shodan rank.





3. No, as I explained in your question #2.





4. Juniors are juniors not just because they are younger. They are juniors because they are less capable of understanding and developing technique as an adult. They lack the maturity, experience, and understanding of an adult. Therefore, juniors are not taught much that the adults are taught. All juniors know from day one that they will not be considered for black belt. They understand that they may be awarded color belts, but not a black belt.





NOTE: In the late 1980's, I made the mistake of awarding a black belt to an exceptional student that was under 16 years of age. At the time I thought that he deserved it and that he would continue to train. Within a few months, he changed totally. His habit of training several times a week came to an end. Shortly after he dropped out of class. He seemed to become depressed after reaching his Shodan. Before he received his Shodan he was always cheerful and worked very hard. Afterward, he was never that way. Since then I have never awarded a black belt to anyone under 20. To follow up on the student.... He joined my senior students class a few years ago. He is an adult now. I was hoping that he would continue. My senior student told me that he did not come to class lone before dropping out. Perhaps he would have dropped out of my class anyway. but I can't help but feel that I did him a great wrong by promoting him at such an early age.





To comment of the statements you made about seeing children black belts, I have this to say. In the last 42 years, I have never seen a child with a black belt that I felt deserved it or could function at a black belt level. That goes for knowledge, ability and understanding of the art they do. Awarding a black belt to children cheapens the rank, instructor that gave it, and sends the wrong message to everyone. When I hear of children with second or third degree black belts, I want to puke. What kind of instructor would award such a rank? In japan the minimum age was 16 for black belt. Then at least 2 years for second dan. Third was at least another 3 years. But those times and ages were rare. Third degree ranks were usually only seen by those in their mid thirties. There was and is a reason for that. to be such a rank legitimately requires a skill, technique, maturity, and understanding level that is not achieved by younger students.








...
Im not an Instructor but I am an 18 year old 1st Dan. (wrote 3rd Dan earlier by mistake)








1) In my club at least it takes roughly 3-4 years to reach Black Belt. I took 5 and thought that it was especially fast, And felt I had barely learnt all I needed to know for the grade. (I still feel that I have a great deal to learn before I could even consider 3rd Dan.





2) There are no age requirements but in my Club two 7 year old girls go their 1st Dans before me. Though I would say their knowledge was suitable their skill levels were not 1st Dan. And indeed I still took class warmups and demonstrations over them (as a 3rd Kyu til my 1st Dan)





3)In my association the younger black belts (aged bellow 14 usually) Train separately from senior Black belts (who are obviously stronger and faster) when they turn 14 they can join if they are of a good build to be able to withstand attacks from the other seniors etc, however most tend to avoid this since they don't have confidence in their own skills which as Black Belts seems counter intuitive.





4)The syllabus remains the same but in seniors they look for Strength, Speed and Knowledge of movements and attacks. The Juniors are only tested on their knowledge of Karate and are not marked down for ';weak moves'; though moves lacking ';spirit'; are obviously marked down. They are still quite strict, Someone in my Grading failed not because of a lack of skill as much as a lack of respect, (during the grade he kept trying to talk to me ALMOST FAILING ME, and even asked to go and get a drink even though we were all equally thirsty)





As for 3rd Dans my association wont allow under 18s to Grade for this rank AT ALL and for 4th Dans its age 22 or upward and they are required to qualify as a Coach and Referee and need to start contributing back into the art to earn the Higher Ranks. In addition each Dan grade is further apart, 1st Dan - 2nd Dan takes 2 years 2nd = 3rd Takes 3 3rd - 4th takes 4, etc etc.





I think the article you linked (whilst it's a good thing for the person involved) makes it appear that the title ';Sensei'; can be held by anyone who works hard for several years. Whereas in my opinion it's a title earnt by combining many years of Martial Arts and Life Experience (something that a 16 year old can't acheive) and much less an aspect of physical prowess.





I think the reasons that Black belts are so readily awarded to people of all ages is because there is a distinct lack of commitment from the younger students. And hope that when a club can boast a class of 5 or more Black Belts it would appear successful. However anyone with any sense would notice that people of this age are incapable of the High levels that the Rank of Black Belt requires.





Whilst I accept this I hate it when the younger students are given the black belt and then leave a few weeks later thinking ';they know it all now'; i've seen many leave like this, and I feel its an Insult to me as someone who wished to follow their example and earn my Black Belt, and subsequently as someone who went through all that and still had the guts to stick to it. I've seen some Black Belts leave for other reasons (University etc but even they do their best to find another club or even new art to train in after they leave.)





Incase you hadn't noticed im equally opposed to giving a Black Belt to anyone under 16 and those given to under 18s Should be in special cases.





Hope this helped
1) The soonest a person can reach Shodan is 4 years.





2)The student will not get Shodan unless they are 18 or older, and have GRADUATED high school with an average or above average GPA.





3)They will remain at the highest Kyu rank until they have graduated high school.





4) No children under 15 are allowed to join the dojo, and they are treated the same as the adults. The 'same' treatment is the respect required and given, the same maturity level is demanded as training is not a joke.





I personally feel that a student who is at least 16 may have the possibility to be promoted to Shodan. Each case really is different when you look at overall life experience and maturity. Some children even at the young ages of 10-13 have more maturity than most adults in their 30's. Although it is rare, it does happen and I think should be held as a factor when assessing their advancement. However, I am only considering their advancement at the appropriate time and age, and the rules still stand.





The reason no children are allowed, is because we do not play around very much in the dojo (although, jokes do surface, and the occasional sidetracking occurs) and we teach more of a permanent injury to lethal style in our system. It's a pain socially because children want to play around and rough house, but when the trained instinctual reaction is to hit the throat, eyes, break small joints, or properly attack organs; there is a larger probability for accidental injury.





One of the biggest reasons no young people are allowed Shodan is because even the adults that have reached Shodan have disgraced the dojo and themselves in outside behavior, and within the dojo itself. Rules are strict, because this is a lifestyle that is built on honor, respect, and devotion to duty in all aspects of life.
I study two styles, Kempo Karate and HaiDong Gumdo (Korean swordsmanship). I am a 1st Dan in Gumdo (preparing for my 2nd Dan test within the next couple of months), and am a Blue with Green stripe in Karate. Since I have a black belt in Gumdo, I'll stick with addressing your questions in that style (I'm sure you'll get other people more knowledgable than I am in Karate to answer your questions in that style).





1) In Gumdo, it takes 18 months to two years for the average student to reach 1st Dan (keep in mind that Gumdo is a very specific martial art, concentrating on study in one specific weapon).





2) There are no minimum age requirements for black belts, though with Gumdo you have to be at least 16 years old and a 1st Dan before you are allowed to handle a live blade on your own (under-16 blackbelts and adult color belts may only handle a live blade under the watchful eye of a master instructor [4th Dan] or higher).





3) Those black belts under the age of 16 are considered junior black belts (after all, if they know the necessary material, why shouldn't they be allowed to test?); they are allowed to continue learning, but they are very, very limited in what they're allowed to teach others (basicly, they're not allowed to to any significant instructing, outside of assisting students in working on what the students have already been taugh, and what little instructing they can do is under the watchful eye of an adult black belt). Once they reach the age of 16, they are then ';transferred'; to their respective adult rank (i.e. a junior 1st Dan becomes a ';regular'; 1st Dan). (It should be noted that 1st and 2nd Dans, even those 16 and older, are considered junior instructors, and only 3rd Dans and above are allowed to head a school under World HaiDong Gumdo Federation rules.)





4) All color belt training and tests, reguardless of age, are using a wooden practice sword. Adults testing into 2nd Dan or higher use a live blade during parts of the tests (cutting bamboo in various ways), but since those under the age of 16 who are testing into any black belt rank, since they aren't allowed to regularly handle a live blade, have to use a blunt metal sword to strike at a small ball that the canditate tosses up into the air.